Chicago Auto Show: Dodge Display Photos From the Floor
Feb 7, 2008 at 10:23AM
CHICAGO — We thought we’d give you a day or so to chew on the official specs and pics, but don’t think for a minute that we don’t have more Dodge Challenger-related hotness coming in the days and weeks ahead. This party has just begun…
And if you haven’t already, check out the Challenger’s new homepage at www.dodge.com/challenger and let us know what you think.
More after the jump…
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43 Comments
waiting patiently, wheres all the information on the challenger now, its like theres nothing new to read about it now
excellent point. maybe the new interior is just the next model away.
I think that a lot of people bashing the interior are forgetting how quickly the Challenger has come to market. Of course they used the Charger interior as a baseline. Otherwise, the Challenger would cost more and take longer to get into production. Maybe we can get an interior make over in 2010.
Watched the chicago auto show on tv this weekend and everyone was picking the challenger as their favorite car, the exterior looks great, maybe with age ill grow to like the interior
Your saying the Challenger has a drinking problem AND a smoking problem? AWESOME!!!
It shouldn’t take a 6.1 “Hemi” making 425 horses with a drinking problem (13mpg…) to smoke a 300 horse Mustang GT
It’s not rocket science guys:
0-60 = weight in kilograms/(max bhp * 0.9)
For the anti-metric ones; 1kg = 2.205 pounds, so divide 4140 by 2.205…
1877.55/(.9*425) = 4.91
It’s simple physics and this formula gives a very good estimate, of course gears, traction, & driver can and will change it, but with 3.0’s in the rear it’s a decent baseline. Also given the huge wheels on the Challenger 5.1 secs seems more realistic to me. Engineers use this all the time for a “quick & dirty” number, that’s why the 4.9secs to 60 is listed on the Allpar site…
I am not here to bash the Challenger, I just want it built right. I bleed Mopar and want to buy a Plum-crazy one with a 6-speed pistol-grip more than you can imagine
I will wait patiently for the ’09 versions and if she’s still over 3600lbs I’ll go buy that used ’98 Viper GTS I’ve been putting off for two years for the same price.
nuff said.
i figured out what it was. SORRY!!
THE BASE CURB WEIGHT IS LIKE 3700 SOMETHING POUNDS. THATS FROM DODGE ON THIS WEB-SITE. SO THAT DOES MAKE ME FEEL A LITTLE BETTER.
AND THIS CAR DOES HAVE THE BIGGEST DROOL FACTOR OF COARSE.
BUT I DO STILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THOSE MUSTANG GT’S BEING ABLE TO NUDGE PAST THE NEW RE-VAMPED HEMI.
IT JUST SHOULDN’T BE SO!!!!
DODGE SHOULD START FINDING WAYS TO DROP SOME OF THAT WEIGHT ON THE PRODUCTION MODELS DOWN THE ROAD. RIGHT?
LIKE YOU SAID FRONTYARD THEY’VE GUTTED ONE WITH THE 392 BEAST IN IT AND STILL DROPPED 800LBS RIGHT??
SO WHY IN THE HECK CAN’T THEY DROP A FEW HOUNDRED FROM THE ONE THEY HAVE NOW.
IM SAYING IF YOUR ONLY GETTING 35-45 MORE PONIES BUT YOUR GETTING A HEIVIER CAR!!! WHAT ARE YOU REALLY DOING THEN???
I’D BE LIEING IF I SAID I HAVEN’T LOOKED HARD AT THE CONVERTIBLE GT’S. BUT MOSTLY FOR A REALITIVE PRICE COMPARISON TO WHAT I’LL PAY FOR MY DROP-TOP IN A YEAR AND A HALF OR SO.
IF THERE GONNA MAKE THE STREET PACKAGES WITH THE NICE COLORS AND STRIPE KITS AND HOPEFULLY SIDE EXHAUST KITS THEY NEED TO ALSO THINK REALLY HARD ABOUT DROPPING A FEW HUNDRED POUNDS. NONE THE LESS THIS CAR IS PRACTICLY MINE. IM JUST SAYING THAT’S ALL. I’LL TAKE IT NO MATTER WHAT. BUT IN THE END DODGE SHOULD DO WHAT’S RIGHT FOR US CAR NUTS!! THIS IS OUR CAR FELLAS. DON’T SETTLE FOR LESSS.
BUT I KNOW IM GONNA EVENTUALLY PUT MY SUPERCHARGER ON MINE. I NEED TO GET MY GIRLFRIEND TO GET PICS OF THE CARS HER DAD BUILDS WOW!!! AND THEY GO BACK BEFORE MUSCLE CARS
IM TALKING 29′ AND 30′S OLD ROADSTERS REAL HOT-RODS. SO IF YOU SEE ME COMING YOU BETTER TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE HEAD START. HAHA. PEACE…
Challenger is no lightweight. It’s larger than the Mustang and upcoming Camaro and weighs an estimated 4150 pounds. This is one of the penalties for being morphed out of existing sedan architecture.
2008 Dodge Charger v8
Weights: curb weight (lbs) 4,100
-PER MOTORTREND
the charger 6 cylinder is actually 300lbs lighter than challenger, but this is irrelevant.
i guess the real answer is charger v8 is 50 lbs lighter than challenger.
Stop worrying about the interior, it looks fine. The worst part will be when some old guy sits in it to drive it. Put some more tint on those windows, please!
do your research before you post… there are 4door charger srt8s killing mustang gts… and to whoever said the charger is 300lbs lighter than the challenger … that makes no sense… the challenger is a 2door built on the same platform as the charger thus it only weighs 200lbs lighter… but its lighter. and trust me this car stock eats up mustang gts.. when the 5.7 l engine comes out then compare the gt to it… but dont disrespect the srt line by comparing a mustang gt to it geez.
PICTURES WERE RELEASED SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE REVEAL. THE PRE-PRODUCTION DISCLAIMER CAN ONLY BE FOR 1 OR 2 REASONS
1. THE NEW UNTESTED COMPONENTS MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE PRODUCED TIMELY, OR POTENTIALLY COULD BE DEFECTIVE FORCING A CHANGE. THUS A LEGAL DISCLAIMER IS NECESSARY, AS A PRECAUTION.
2. THE INTERIOR MAYBE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT, AND IS NOT YET READY IN PRODUCTION FORM.
I DON\’T THINK THE \”PRODUCTION\” CARS AT THE SHOW WERE MORE THAN MULES.
THE NUMBER PLAQUE ON THE DASH APPEARS TO SAY 2008 6400, NOT A SEQUENTIAL PRODUCTION #.
IF SOMEONE HAS SEEN THIS IN PERSON AND CAN ATTEST OTHERWISE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
I\’LL CALL THE FACTORY ON MONDAY AND SEE IF ANYBODY WANTS TO LET US KNOW IF THE FIRST ACTUAL PRODUCTION CAR HAS BEEN BUILT AS OF YET, NO ONE HAS BEEN IN THIS PAST WEEK.
WITH THE INTERIOR SO CLOSE TO BOTH THE 300 AND THE CHARGER, WHY WOULD THEY BE CONCERNED ABOUT NEW COMPONENT/SUPPLY ISSUES?
REMEMBER THE CUDA CONCEPT SHOWN AT SEMA, LOOK AT THE INTERIOR. http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/plugins/iimage-gallery.php?idpost=4207&idg=1&idi=5
NOTICE THE CARBON FIBER ON THE TOP OF THE STEERING WHEEL AND THE FACEPLATE FOR THE RADIO.
ALSO LOOK AT THE SRT CHARGER. VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL TO CHALLENGER.
I THINK WE MAY YET SEE A COUPLE OF CHANGES TO THE INTERIOR BEFORE IT COMES OUT, BUT I WILL BE HAPPY EITHER WAY.
Frontyard, I agree with your assessment and listed fixes on the interior. I know that the pictures on this sight show pre-production model show, but the pictures of the interior at the unveiling are basically the same. So the question is were these labeled that way because they were taken a few days before the unveiling to ensure they had something to put on the site, and the unveiling of the production car had what will be produced? Or are they telling us that the unveiled production model is still the same and they have not made final decisions on it?
HRW, NO QUESTION THE CHALLENGER ROCKS. HOWEVER,I THINK EVERYBODY’S A LITTLE SURPRISED OVER THE INTERIOR LOOKING SO CLOSE TO THE 300 AND THE CHARGER. AND WITH INFO STILL SO SLOW TO COME, SOME PEOPLE ARE GETTING CARRIED AWAY.
I THINK IF CHRYSLER DOES NOT PUT OUT THE CUDA,IT WILL BE BECAUSE THEY FEEL THAT THEY WILL CANABALIZE CHALLENGER SALES. I FOR ONE WOULD OWN 1 OF EACH.
BUT TELL ME, SHOULD THE CUDA LOOK LIKE THE 70 OR 71.
For all the negative comments so far in this blog, get over it.
This new Challenger is AWESOME. I knew I had to own one the first time I saw the concept car photos 2 years ago. It’s MUCH better than the concept vehicle in my opinion.
I originally owned a ‘70 Challenger with a 440 Magnum that I bought used in ‘73 after graduating from high school. I paid just $1200 for it (in the middle of the energy crisis). I loved that car!
The looks, the sound, and the INCREDIBLE features of this 2008 Challenger are well beyond my wildest dreams of what I thought they would include. The Dodge Boys have blown me away with all the really cool gizmos that have included. It is definitely one of the most technologically advanced cars on the PLANET. Just UNREAL what they have included!
Forget the weight issue if this puppy really cranks out 0-60 times in the 4.7 to 4.9 sec. times like I have heard.
Like the original Hemi Engine, I think this car is VERY conservatively rated at 425 HP. (don’t tell that to my insurance company though. It’s probably pushing closer to 500HP to do those low 13 second 1/4 mile times. I don’t think it will disappoint anyone when the “petal hits the metal”.
From the retro exterior lines, awesome engine compartment, to the elite classy leather interior & ultra-modern gauges, the guys at SRT did an outstanding job.
Just so you know, I also own a 2005 Roush Mustang GT Convertible (sorry, I purchased it before Chrysler had anything comparable to offer). The 2008 Challenger in comparison just blows it away without even having to start the engine!
The “WOW” factor overall for this car is unreal. Nothing I’ve seen in a long, long time brings a universal “drool factor” like this car. I screams HOT!
I ordered my new Challenger the first week they were available. My local Chrysler dealer is letting me purchase this car at window sticker without any added markup. WOW! Beat that! (I’ve already had an offer for $5,000 just to move me out of line…fat chance. Yes, I know, my dealer could have asked $10,000 - $20,000 over sticker and got it so I fell very fortunate).
Chrysler, you guys got this one right!
For you guys seeking to get your deposits back and are disappointed in the final results of the production car, I think you’ll sorely regret that decision. It just doesn’t get any better than this… at least for now!
P.S.
By the way I also own a ‘70 Hemicuda, ‘71 Hemicuda, ‘70 Charger and ‘70 Superbird 440-6pk. Yes, I’m a MOPAR nut! Just don’t talk about my “toys” around the my wife!
P.S.S
When can we expect a CUDA Version? Don’t stop now with just the Challenger!
nice job von. i was going off memory. that info meshes with the unveiling ceremony. someone needs to road test it.
did anyone notice the interior pictures on this site all say pre-production model shown? it says this only on the interior pics.
anyways, i think the interior is an easy fix for dodge.
1. get rid of the grey interior, a musclecar should have black or white interior only, dash should always be black. (exception: if you do a steel dash it should be painted to match exterior color)
2. do a better job on the steering wheel, it needs to be done right from the factory. you do not want your customers replacing this (it has an airbag).
3. a couple of choices on carpet color would be great.
4. some people like the horizontal pleats of the prototype seats. this would be a low cost option.
5. i’m sure i can find my own pistol grip shift knob, but it would of been nice if it were factory.
other bloggers please chime in, do you think these suggestions would work, does anyone have any other ideas?
There is a good article about what Skid pad testing is and what it means written by Jay Chen for “Sport Compact Car” on the following site if anyone is interested in learning more.
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0708_sccp_lateral_g_skidpad_testing/index.html
Here is a copy of information as stated from Allparr
http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/challenger.html
0-60 in 4.9 seconds
Five seats
Zero to 100 mph and back in under 17 seconds
Quarter-mile times 13.3 seconds
60-0 braking of 110 feet
Skid pad performance of 0.88 g (or .9g as reported in the launch ceremony)
A five-speed automatic (no manual transmission yet)
MOTORTREND REPORTS 4.9 SECOND 0-60 TIME FOR CHALLENGER AS REPORTED TO THEM BY DODGE. MUSTANG IS 150 LBS LIGHTER THAN CHALLENGER. FYI
2005 TO 2007 MUSTANG GT STATS AS REPORTED BY MODERN RACER:
Top speed : 143 mph
0-60 mph : 5.1 sec.(manual)
0-¼ mile : 13.9 sec @ 104.0 mph
60-0 braking distance : 120 ft
200 ft skidpad : 0.87 g
IF YOU WATCH THE CHALLENGER UNVEILING VIDEO, THE SPEAKER CLAIMS HIGHER TOP SPEED, BETTER 0-60 TIMES, ABOUT EQUAL 1/4 MILE, BETTER BRAKING AND BETTER SKIDPAD.
HERES THE THING, THE SPEAKER WAS JIM THE VP, IF HE EXAGGERATES, HE OPENS THE COMPANY TO A LAWSUIT ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
I BELIEVE IT WAS HYUNDAI,THAT LOST A CLASS ACTION SUIT WITHIN THE LAST 6 MONTHS FOR OVERSTATING HORSEPOWER BY 30 PONIES. THATS WHY THE NUMBERS COME OUT CONSERVATIVE ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
YOU COULD SAY “THE NEW VIPER IS THE BEST CAR EVER” AND GET AWAY WITH IT, BECAUSE YOU ARE OFFERING AN OPINION. YOU COULD NOT SAY THE NEW VIPER HAS A TOP SPEED OF 300 MILES PER HOUR. AS IT IS UNTRUE AND EASILY MEASURABLE.
BESIDES, I KNOW YOU ARE WAITING FOR THE 5.7 380 HP 6 SPEED. WHEN YOU DROP YOUR SUPERCHARGER ON, YOU SHOULD BE PUSHING CLOSE TO 550 HP. THE ONLY MUSTANG THAT WOULD COME CLOSE WOULD BE THE 500KR (540 HP), HOWEVER THE SHELBY SUPERSNAKE WITH UP TO 700 HP WILL REQUIRE SOMETHING QUITE A BIT MORE RADICAL.
LET THE PONY WARS HEAT UP!!!!
hey kkkk and frontyard!!!
I do appreciate the optimism. BUT!!!
THE CHARGER IS 300 LBS LIGHTER!!!
I read the 4.9 thing on allpar thanks.
BUT I ALSO READ THE LOW 5′S THING ON DODGE!!!
SO YOU TELL ME GUYS!!!
It’s really ticking me off. I love the car but is the re-vamped hemi gonna be able to take a gt mustang or not???
‘Cause i really hope so.
WELL SAID, SPECIAL K’S. NO ONE ON THIS BLOG WOULD EVEN THINK TO LOOK AT THE TRACK RECORD ETC TO MAKE A FAIR JUDGEMENT. I HAVE DRIVEN AN SRT8 CHARGER, THIS CAR MOVES OUT, AND I KNOW DODGE HAS MADE THIS CHALLENGER FASTER THAN ANY MUSTANG GT. MARK MY WORDS.
To Dodge ceo. I’m 46 I have had many sport cars in my life. I was looking forward to buy a challenger. ( NOT NOW! ) Can you tell me why dose a car company spend millions of dollars making a concept car ( challenger ) that every one likes wants to buy then after all that the car company ( dodge ) totally changes the interior. The funny thing is the first pic on the dodge site never had the inters pic on it I wondered why ?
Maybe they know there would be an up roar over this.
PS: Dodge you screwed up the charger now the challenger forget the past apparently you have no idler what your doing just keep making your mine vans.
I rented a dodge charger a week a go not a bad car , the interior is the same in the challenger what a disappointed. If they fix the interior on the 2009 model I will buy it if not I will wait for the Camaro.
wowwwwwww so much trash talking about this amazing car. DO YOUR RESEARCH.!!! the charger srt8 dodge said did 0-60 in 5 flat. guess what they were wrong its EVEN FASTER it does 0-60 in 4.8 and even 4.7 stock. if you watched the video of the unveiling and not just read stupid reviews by edmunds or road and track. they said the challenger does 0-60 in 4.9 and that is grosely underated you can bet this thing will do in in 4.6. so to all the people comparing this to a mustang gt? give me a break.
it’s a muscle car, if you don’t like it, modify it!
I agree with most of the comments but I hope we can keep the blog from personal attacks and instead (as diehard Chally & Dodge fans that we are) provide some constructive critisism. After reviewing all the specs and other blogs I believe the three major complaints are 1) the car is way to heavy (should have come in around 3500-3700 lbs) 2) the interior needs to be more like the concept (especially the steering wheel and center console) 3) get rid of the RAMS head (on the wheels, the hood and anywhere else for that matter.. come up with another logo for the cars or just use the word dodge) I noticed that the MOPAR logo looks like a rams head (maybe they should make it more like the Mopar logo (i.e. more 2 dimensional or abstract). Jst my thought I no there are plenty or great car guys at Dodge and I am hopeful they will do the right thing… for me I am holding out for 2009 to see if they incorporate these changes and also for the 6 speed manual tranny.
The performance is very concerning. I Have a 3200 supercharged import in garage that will run mid 13’s. I’m not dumping it for 4200lb slower car with a 10 -20K dealer markup..
Cant wait to get my deposit back, dodge let me down on this car. Everywhere you read dodge tells us theres very few changes made to the production model, after comparing the pictures of the interior i havent found much the same with it, wonder how hard it would be to remove those nice big cup holders (lmao) after stripping the interior of everything that remids us of the old challenger i wonder how many other things were removed to save money. One thing i did find when comparing interior pics is theres more room for another rams head.I trusted you people at dodge to keep this car the same as the one i saw and was willing to spend 6 grand over list but not now , hoping my car goes from bx to za
I bleed Mopar, but I have to agree that the interior is subpar and this thing is bloated. I am a little concerned that the R/T Challenger may not be able to beat a Mustang GT. That is just not acceptable. We want to lead this race!
MR KRISPY, ODDLY ENOUGH YOU GET YOUR WISH. CHALLENGER SUPER STOCK WILL BE RELEASED IN A FEW WEEKS. 800 LBS LIGHTER, WITH FIBERGLASS FRONT END. I THINK THEY THROW AWAY THE INTERIOR FOR YOU AS WELL, WHICH SHOULD BE A PLUS.
CHECK IT OUT!
http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/challenger.html
just read the mustang gt runs a 5.25 in the 0-60. so the srt dodge can barley match an ordinary mustang gt that so freaking lame. what the heck were they thinking? this car is a tank. why in the world would they put out a 42000lb monster when a 300hp gt can take even the new re-vamped HEMI what is wrong with this?? dude dodge went with just looks on this one and they better fix it buy next year. period.
Dear Ford & Chevy honks…I think the trick to seeding blogs with plugs for your product is to be subtle about it. Mustang interior sets the bar for stink, dogg, so please don’t bring that up here.
Dodge absolutely nailed this thing. Any chitter-chatter nitpick is just that. Only thing you clowns will need to critique when you see me in mine is the taillight, because you won’t be seeing much more than that. promise
It also looks like they added a B pillar that is not on the original car very disappointed dodge!
If your going to make a retro car then do it all the way not 80% then went it doesn’t sale good, they say retro doesn’t sale /// see ford mustang.
I’m begging you change the steering wheel while there’s still time! The 6400 08s are accounted for you can let them be, but change it for the 09s! A limited run of 6400 challengers with that steering wheel is the only way you could make it special lol
I’ve just seen the interior pics of the 2008 Dodge Challenger one word ugly!!! Why go retro out side and go modern on the in side. I was looking to buy one of these but now I think I will buy an old one. Car companies are like politicians the promise you one thing then give you some thing else. At less give us a difference steering wheel. What a disappointment!!!!
I hope chevy don’t make the same mistake.
Look at the ford mustang good job!
wow!!!!!
all i can say is wow!!!
I READ THIS LAST NIGHT AND WAS LIKE WHAT?
THIS MUST BE WRONG??? RIGHT? LOW 5 SEC????
DARN IT. NOW THIS IS KINDA SAD. IM TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW I CAN MANAGE TO BUY ONE OF THESE NEXT YEAR BUT DUDE THEY AREN’T EVEN THAT FAST.
MOPAR DAN YOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD MAN.
THE SRT IS IN THE LOW 5 SEC? THAT SUCKS. I COULD SEE THE R/T RUNNING THAT BUT DUDE THE SRT IS NOT REALLY SETTING A BENCH MARK WITH THAT GARBAGE NUMBER.
AS THE OTHER GUY SAID I DO WANT TO LOOK GOOD IN IT. AND I LOVE THE BLACK BUT I KNEW I WOULD. AND IM SURE THE CAR WILL HOLD VALUE OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS SO IT MAKES STILL WANT IT NO MATTER WHAT THE 0-60 IS. BUT HONESTLY I EXPECTED MORE A LOT MORE I GUESS LIKE 4.5 SECS. COME ON MAN
AND IT IS ABOUT KNOWING YOU CAN BEAT THE GUY NEXT TO YOU. WOW. PLEASE DODGE MAKE THIS THING LIGHTER LIKE ABOUT A 1000LBS MAN. MAKE ONE ALL FIBERGLASS LIKE A VETTE. DUDE I WANTED AN 03′ DROPTOP TRIPLE BLACK VETTE’ AND WHEN THEY SAID THE CHALLENGER WAS GONNA COME OUT IN A DROPTOP I DIDN’T WANT THAT VETTE’
BUT SERIOUSLY NOW THAT DODGE POSTED THESE NUMBERS I KINDA WANT THE VETTE’ AGAIN. SORRY BUT IT’S A THOUGHT AGAIN. I AM DISSAPOINTED AND IM SOO SOO SORRY I AM
It’s like having the nicest restaurant in the world, but the food is horrible.
90% of people won’t take it to the track, but Car & Driver will. The only reason this car is so famous is because it was fast and the numbers proved it, not because it looked good in Go-Man-Go orange. If they only came with 225 Slant-6’s no-one would have cared.
It’s bad enough the Hemi’s don’t have Hemi heads, now the top of the line Challenger can’t run in the 4 sec club. We’re not talking about the V6 or an RT, this is the SRT version.
You will loose to many a “Stang” and it will matter to you, on the track or on the road. I am not advocating street racing and a big smoky burn-out will get you into just as much trouble.
It’s not about racing and beating every fool out there, it’s knowing you can.
I don’t care if it will beat a corvette or anything else for that matter (exept for a stang). I don’t plan on racing anytime soon. I don’t need any tickets. Of course a good burnout here and there are a must, but I will skip the street racing. However I do want to look good driving it, and in that department the chally wins hands down. Can’t say I like the choice of steering wheel they picked. But that’s it, everything else looks great. I wanted orange, but after seeing it in black WOW-that’s the color I want now.
Wow!!! It looks so good!!!! But 4140 lbs, are you kidding me??? You have to put her on a diet or you’ll follow the fate of the new Shelby, sure lots of fools ran out to buy them at first, but once you start getting smoked by basic vettes and loose your street credit these cars won’t survive. Top Gear even ripp’d the Shelby a new one on their road test.
I didn’t see any performance figures in the specs except for the braking which is impressive, but it will be it will be lucky to be in the 5’s to 60 and high 13’s in the 1/4 with that 3.0 gear and this is the SRT version. That means the 4.7 Hemi will be a dog and the V6 will be anemic
PLEASE, shave off some weight, I want one of these cars so bad, but my 1966 Chrysler 300 weighs less. Please make some carbon fiber, Al, or even fiberglass body panels. You don’t need to change anything else and then you will be proud to list the performance numbers…
It looks like the production number on this car is #6? and on another site The took a Picture of one which looked like #4. So who will get these cars? Are they being shipped out to those who placed orders or are they saved for the Corporate executives?
As some others have said, I want to know when the next iteration will be available to place orders. The dealers in Canada have told me that they have not been able to place orders and all of the 08’s are gone. I need to know when I can go to the dealer and discuss me wants and needs regarding this car that I have waited all of this time for.
Now when are the 2009 R/T’s and SXT’s coming out, and how about the 6 speed tremec?